There is a lost feeling that comes over me this time of year. In the gap between New Year’s and whatever happens next in my life. That’s not specific enough. Lost is a feeling. And a place.
Specifics. Next gains in employment. Which aspects of moneymaking do I add to the writing agenda? How do I balance making money from writing with my creative writing, the blog, my book, the simple, unbridled pleasure of setting words down on the page.
I’ve got a plan. A Vision. It became clear when I did my gratitude list. It’s the same plan I had a few months ago. Next steps, a flyer for teaching, taking the blog to the next level, or letting go. The lost feeling stirs me to the dregs of decisions – what do I let go of. What do I hold on to. Letting go implies a sense of loss. I don’t like to feel loss.
A snowstorm is moving in from the West. Sweeping cold, after 42 degree drips off the eaves, sliding down the gutter and into dead mahogany grass. Across the screensaver, photographs, ghosts of last summer. The rain that fell like hail, and looked like snow. The tiny side garden that forms a half moon on the hill, lined with river rocks. And each year we add another variety of plant or flower.
Still no details. I’m looking to land.
I’m thinking about gender differences when it comes to emotions. Some of it is the way we are hardwired to operate in the world. From a very young age, girls and boys are corralled and branded according to gender. But some of it is hormonal. No one (man or woman) wants to hear the “H” word when it relates to women. Yet hormone comes from the Greek, “hormon” — that which sets in motion, impels, or urges on. What’s wrong with that?
And hormones are all the rage when it comes to steroids and sports. Secretly, this country thinks that men have a god-given right to harden and bulk up. Yet women, no right to a moment of tenderness or vulnerability.
Bodies. Men and women have different chasseys; different fluids keep their bodies running. The most recent evidence of this for me was reading about a woman who was undergoing the process of changing to a man. Sometimes the soul of a man gets trapped in a female body. Sometimes the spirit of a woman gets trapped in a male. People have the right to do with their own bodies what they will. I don’t judge.
The woman was in a relationship with another woman. They were partners. When she began taking the testosterone for the curves of her body to transform and harden, something else happened – she stopped crying. This was a woman who had cried freely and easily all her life, felt strong emotion, was connected to her feelings.
After testosterone, no more tears.
I don’t understand all the details in the internal workings of hormones. But I know they make a difference in the way we connect and operate in the world. To expect women to act like men is not reasonable. It’s not even something I would want. I have empathy and respect for the attributes that both sexes bring to the table.
The woman taking the testosterone is struggling in her relationship. And she is distraught at the change in her emotional makeup. Her partner, fully supportive of the bodily changes, is wondering what happened to the soft, empathetic personality of the woman she fell in love with. Is she gone forever? Who better than this couple to glean a better understanding of the hormonal realities and shifts between men and women.
Why do men, if they do, cry secretly. And women cry openly. Several of our readers have commented on breaking down at work at least once in their careers. About going through a rough patch, losing it emotionally, crying or raging in the workplace.
The same thing happened to me about 5 years ago, right before I left the corporate environment I had worked in for 9 years. There was lots of stress in my personal life. Yet I managed 3 teams of over 30 people and had to keep it together at work. One week, I couldn’t contain it anymore. I broke down.
I wasn’t looked at the same after that either. I was seen as a less effective leader. The managers under me (all women) became suspicious of my decisions. I took some time off to regroup. Fortunately, I already had plans to leave that career path for my writing. So I don’t know how it would have worked out if I had stayed.
I might have applied for a job where I no longer had to manage people. Middle management is a thankless job. You’re trapped between everyday complaints from teams of hardworking employees, and the rigid dictation of corporate management whose talons swoop down from above. It’s a big fat game.
The pressure is huge for women to conform to the systems already in place: in work, in politics, in love. But if they truly honored that request, they would no longer be able to contribute the myriad of gifts that make them women. There is no winning.
Hillary has given rise again to the complicated issues around gender gaps. I think the debate is good. But if we’re going to hold her to such high standards, it follows that we should also put the same pressures on fathers, uncles, nephews, sons – to make them break down and cry. The next time their child is in pain. Or they celebrate their 20th wedding anniversary. Or a close friend at work is in an accident and won’t be returning. Or what about when they read of a country whose citizens are being slain, through the systematic murder of genocide.
Yeah, maybe we should expect them to force themselves to cry. The way the systems of power in the world force us to try not to. To push our politicians to show some kind of human emotion in situations where any normal person would be grateful for the capacity to feel.
I don’t have any answers. This is a writing practice – feelings and thoughts rambling around in my head this morning. It’s not edited or polished. It’s not anything – but practice. A release from having to control all those pent up emotions. And wonderment at why, after half a century of living as a woman, I only have more questions.
-posted on red Ravine, Thursday, January 10th, 2008
-related to Topic post, WRITING TOPIC – EMOTIONAL VOCABULARY and the post, Do You Do Politics?
Wow, QM. You constantly amaze me. This is a fabulous reflection on emotions and gender and the way we view one another. Thank you.
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QM –
I really liked your practice writing. You have put things into perspective at least for me. Sometimes I get so frustrated with myself for crying, but I think that I would miss it terribly if it just went away. When I am alone and I feel the need to cry it can be so therapeutic; it is an effective way to vent emotions. Then I usually become myself again with a sense of humor.
I just wish, lately, that I could control it especially at work because reality is some coworkers do not like to see this kind of thing, or they like it because it’s something to gossip about. We all know how gossip can get out of hand in the workplace. Thanks for the insight QM – N
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bloomgal, thank you for the great compliment. I appreciate your comment so much. Especially since releasing practices on the blog always makes me feel more vulnerable than my ordinary posts.
Neecy, thank you for your insights on the Do You Do Politics? (LINK) post Monday. They really got me thinking about work as related to what’s happened with Hillary. And I’d already been thinking about body and hormones in relationship to gender. It just all came together in this practice this morning.
From the comments the last few days, I can see that women in the workplace are struggling more than we know. Particularly in male-dominated jobs or the corporate world. But also with women in the workplace being too critical of other women. It makes me wonder how widespread all this really is.
I know what you mean about how people like to talk. When I had my little emotional outbursts at work, it was kind of over a week. And one of them was in a large meeting. I felt totally exposed. And, you know, it wasn’t until I left the job and met socially with the three managers under me a few years later, that I learned all the things everyone was saying about me after that little breakdown. The gossip at work can be relentless.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean I wasn’t a good manager. Or didn’t do a good job. The same is true for you. There are so many factors that go into all of this. It just can’t be reduced down to one thing like gender, hormones, emotions, stress, body differences. But we’d be naive to think all of these things aren’t factoring in.
The only thing I wish I had done differently is to have taken some time off or a leave of absence before I got to the point of breaking. Another sad thing in the work environment in this country – we aren’t encouraged to take much needed time off. To rest and reflect.
And most women are doing double duty – still raising families, being caretakers (to parents and kids), AND working full-time. It’s all too much. Some things have changed for women in the workplace. But not enough (in my humble opinion).
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Neecy, I wanted to mention one other thing about your saying you’d miss crying or having strong emotions if you had to shut them off for good or they weren’t there anymore. I feel the same way. The capacity to feel leads to compassion, forgiveness, empathy. And is also so uncomfortable sometimes.
I also think that the ability of many women to show emotion and release feelings through those emotions (such as anger and rage) keeps them from being perpetrators of much of the violence in the world. This isn’t across the board. But if you look at statistics on who’s injuring, maiming, and killing who out there, there is a strong leaning in one direction.
Maybe this is what scares people in this country about having a woman President (many other countries have already done it). We’d be challenged to change the way this country as a whole relates to the rest of the world. Some changes might be positive. Some not. But it would definitely be change.
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I ordered a hardcover of Robert Frost poems from Amazon. The package arrived today–with the wrong book. The one that came is a compilation of women poets called: Ain’t I A Woman?
The poem on the back of the book jacket was written by Sojourner Truth, and read publicly for the first time in 1851. I thought it a fitting contribution to redRavine in light of Hillary, crying, woman, and all.
Ain’t I A Woman?
That man over there say
a woman needs to be helped into carriages
and lifted over ditches
and to have the best place everywhere.
Nobody ever helped me into carriages
or over mud puddles
or gives me a best place…
And ain’t I a woman?
Look at me
Look at my arm!
I have plowed and planted
and gathered into barns
and no man could head me…
And ain’t I a woman?
I could work as much
and eat as much as a man–
when I could get to it–
and bear the lash as well
and ain’t I a woman?
I have born 13 children
and seen most all sold into slavery
and when I cried out a mother’s grief
none but Jesus heard me…
and ain’t I a woman?
that little man in black there say
a woman can’t have as much rights as a man
cause Christ wasn’t a woman
Where did your Christ come from?
From God and a woman!
Man had nothing to do with him!
If the first woman God ever made
was strong enough to turn the world
upside down, all alone
together women ought to be able to turn it
rightside up again.
Sojourner Truth 1797-1883
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I connected with your essay in so many ways, from the winter blues, to changing career paths, to showing emotions and the difference between the sexes.
Once when my husband and I went through a hard time in our marriage I saw a look of such intense pain on his face that it broke my heart, yet he never shed any tears. I’ve always felt sad for him that he doesn’t cry.
My sons don’t cry anymore either, even though I know they would like to on a certain physical level. They suck it up.
When Hillary cried, I was one with her.
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How thought-provoking, especially the part about the trans-gendering person who was emotionally hardened by hormones. It may be more than just hormones.
About a year ago I read Norah Vincent’s book “A Self-Made Man.” Norah didn’t take hormones at all, but she mastered the art of cross-dressing, right down to credible five o-clock shadow, so well that her disguise never failed. She hung out with a tough gang of bowlers, spent a few weeks in retreat in a monastery, dated women, participated in an Iron John weekend retreat … and was never found out.
She was profoundly disturbed by the experience. The whole interaction thing, the expectations and acceptances and all that men accord men fell hard on her shoulders. She suffered a full-blown identity crisis at the end of her journalistic adventure, and spent ages in therapy.
I strongly recommend this book for anyone who wants more insight into gender differences.
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Gosh there are so many things I could comment about here… I don’t even know where to begin.
First of all Quoinmonkey, I thought this was a great piece. You’re an excellent writer and very honest and you manage to talk about tough subjects while still keeping enough detachment to let the reader form his or her opinion, I like that. I’m astounded by the quality of your writing if that is indeed you first draft because I know that anything I write goes though many edits. Sometimes minor, sometimes not so minor.
When it comes to Hillary, I feel I need to choose my words carefully, since I’m Canadian and therefore not as directly affected by who is in Washington. At the same time we’re your largest neighbor and are directly affected by certain policies when it comes to travel for example. But as we all know American politics affect every person on this planet in this day and age. I think it would be a good thing to have a woman in charge, but I can well imagine no one making it easy for her to get there, or helping her much when she is in post (other than her staff of course). I saw the video of her crying and I really don’t see why there’s such a big deal being made about it other than the reasons that you’ve pointed and also the fact that as I mentioned, people are on the lookout for anything they can ridicule or pull her down with. And this from a person who doesn’t take an interest in politics.
I’d have quite a lot to say about hormones affecting mood and personality traits, from a personal point of view. And also about corporate life and the expectations put women and what it’s like to work in a women-only environment, but I really don’t want to hog you comment section. So maybe I’ll come back to comment further later.
In the meantime… tag.
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QM, this practice touched me in many different ways. It was raw and yet there was a coherence in it. I felt a groundedness and a heaviness, and I realized that your words touched my own deep sense of not even frustration but more a tiredness. Tired for the seemingly static nature of life and male-female relationships and the world and work, and, and… So, just to say, this resonated, deeply. Thank you.
RECALL:
There is a lost feeling that comes over me this time of year.
a feeling. And a place.
Specifics.
Next gains in employment.
Which aspects of moneymaking do I add to the writing agenda?
unbridled pleasure of setting words down on the page
The lost feeling stirs me to ***the dregs of decisions***
Sweeping cold, after ***42 degree drips off the eaves***, sliding down the gutter and into dead mahogany grass.
The rain that fell like hail, and looked like snow.
I’m looking to land. **
corralled and branded
“hormon” — that which sets in motion, impels, or urges on. What’s wrong with that?
men have a god-given right to harden and bulk up
women, no right to a moment of tenderness or vulnerability
I don’t judge.
they make a difference in the way we connect and operate in the world
To expect women to act like men is not reasonable. It’s not even something I would want.
what happened to the soft, empathetic personality of the woman she fell in love with
men, if they do, cry secretly
women cry openly
seen as a less effective leader
trapped between everyday complaints from teams of hardworking employees, and the rigid dictation of corporate management
no longer be able to contribute the myriad of gifts that make them women
There is no winning.
***make them break down and cry***
The way the systems of power in the world force us to try not to.
It’s not anything – but practice. A release from having to control all those pent up emotions.
And wonderment at why, after half a century of living as a woman, I only have more questions.
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I think you’ve asked some brilliant questions, QM. My experience is that any kind of weakness is looked upon suspiciously in the workplace — it doesn’t have to be a fullblown breakdown or tears. Even taking time off for illness… I find that people tend to see those who never do as strong, good employees, and the others as somehow flawed.
Sometimes, we want to suggest that some middle ground would actually be most appropriate, but really, as you’ve implied, a world where our individual qualities were utilized as strengths would just make so much more sense. Fascinating topic.
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Sinclair, you constantly surprise me with your contributions of great literature and poetry to our comments. What a great moment of synchronicity that you’d receive a book of women poets rather than the ordered Frost.
Sojourner Truth, I had not read her words in many years. I studied her, along with many other such women, in my Women’s Studies class in the early 70’s. (I wonder if younger women know that the feminist movements were a big part of introducing Women’s Studies classes and majors in college. They did not exist before that.)
Sojourner (Isabella) was part of the first movement of feminism that included Susan B. Anthony. And worked hard to gain women the right to vote.
It’s good to note here that only white men with property could vote until 1869, at which point black men were given the right to vote in the 15th amendment (yet they were still heavily discriminated against). But at that point, women could STILL not vote.
It wasn’t until 1920 and the 19th amendment that any woman could vote. And Sojourner was a part of making that happen.
Here’s a link to her history and bio:
Sojourner’s Amazing Life And Beyond (LINK)
You know what strikes me about this poem is how radical it is – for her time – and even today. Things have become so watered down and politically correct, that you just don’t hear the strong voices of women the same way you used to. She took a huge risk writing it. And by the way she lived her life. Thank goodness for women like her. Thank you for sharing it.
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C, the ability to cry seems so basic to me. I wonder at the price we all have to pay living in a world where men (and women who operate in primarily male domains) think they have to suck it up.
As you are talking about your husband and sons not crying, a question surfaces for me – did your sons follow their father as a role model? Or was it societal pressure. I don’t have children, but I’m trying to remember if I’ve ever seen any of my 4 brothers cry. I have to ponder that more.
ritergal, thanks for reminding me about the book Self-Made Man. I actually had it on my list to read for a while. But so many books….I did see Norah Vincent interviewed quite a bit when the book came out. It was fascinating to hear her experiences.
For photographs and to read more about Norah, here’s the link to her website:
Norah Vincent – Self-Made Man (LINK)
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Smiler, thank you for your thoughtful comment. It’s good to hear from our Canadian friends to the North. I’m always wanting to know more about what people from other countries are thinking and feeling about what’s going on here in America. We don’t have the best reputation in the world at large right now. But it does seem like the choices made in this country have a huge impact elsewhere.
I think you are right in that people (men & women) are going to scrutinize Hillary in ways they will not do to the male candidates. I’m constantly amazed at the backlash she receives, not from her political record and credentials, but the way she dresses, her hair, her emotional demeanor. I don’t hear too many people looking at the other candidates and calling them Ice Kings.
I wanted to say about this practice, I did clean up the spelling and punctuation. But otherwise, it’s pretty much as I wrote it. But this is not a typical practice in several ways. One is that I’d been mulling all the basic themes in the practice all week. So when I wrote it, the words came together from letting it kind of sit in my belly all week.
So it is raw, but also has a coherent feel as yboney’s mentions. It’s kind of like a practice I’d do to write an essay (and I’m thinking about turning it into one). My practices are not always that way. I want to say one other thing about writing practices for red Ravine – there is a different feeling that comes over me when I do a practice I know I am going to make THIS public.
I don’t know if it’s true for ybonesy, but when I practice for red Ravine, I slow down more when I do the free write. I’m aware in the back of my mind of the need for diplomacy, not to offend, not to mention personal names, anonymity, etc., all things I don’t have to worry about in my everyday private practices (which can get raunchy or down low because I can say anything).
I hope this makes sense. It’s not something I would have known before doing these public practices for red Ravine. But ybonesy and I are dedicated to getting the word out about writing practice. So we keep writing!
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I remember my grandfather crying easily, especially as he aged. He was as rugged as you get, a cowboy in Cimarron, NM, wild terrain. Literally rode a horse every day. A gambler, the works. And he cried openly as he aged and we celebrated his life.
My father also cries easily, as does my mom. I can cry coming in the tail end of a movie and only seeing the last scene. I cry at poignant commercials. And Jim cries even more easily. He will cry watching Em play guitar at a recital. We are just a crying, fainting family 8) . And I’ve seen Jim cry more easily the older he gets.
I’ve heard my dad say he wish he didn’t cry so easily now in his 80s. I think he feels embarrassed by it a bit. I’m not embarrassed by his crying though, or Jim’s. But I know they feel kind of silly when they cry so easily.
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ybonesy, that’s interesting about your grandfather crying more with age. You know, I cry more with age, too. I find myself tearing up at all the same things you mention: TV shows, commercials, moving stories.
When I was talking to my brother R3 a few weeks ago, I busted out crying when I was talking about the family. I was pretty choked up and couldn’t even talk. It took me a minute to recover so we could go on talking.
That choked up kind of crying happend to me in Taos last year. I had to stop reading my practice – I couldn’t go on. And it was about something I had no idea I knew I felt that strongly about. One of the benefits of writing practice.
It feels so good to cry. Exhausting, too. I hope I don’t ever lose that capacity. I think you are lucky you have a crying, fainting family!
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pmousse, good point. That any kind of weakness is looked on suspiciously in the workplace. I knew employees who were afraid to ask for time off for funerals, to care for loved ones, or just to take some space to manage a particularly hard time in their own families.
If you think about it, what do we get these days for death in the family, 2 days off? And it has to be immediate family, too. Doesn’t matter if you are closer to someone outside of your immediate family. There is so much wrong with the way we are driven to do more, more, more with less, less, less in our work environments these days.
ybonesy, I forgot to mention, thank you for the Recall. I really appreciated reading it. I did feel very heavy when I was writing this practice. I have felt that way all week. I guess for all the reasons I wrote about. It all makes me tired, too. Change seems so slow.
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This was very interesting. I wonder how many of these things really are hormone-driven, and how many are cultural. I see men in their twenties who are far more emotionally open; the gender barriers of that generation are much more fluid.
I think a great deal also has to do with basic personality and formative influences regardless of gender. I have three straight male friends, my age and a bit older, who cry very easily … ridiculously easily, to my way of thinking. All of them are creative types, however, who were encouraged to be creative even when they were children. They were never taught that boys shouldn’t be emotional, because their parents realized that creativity is linked in some way to emotional access.
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QM, quite an interesting post!
As far as the gender changing comment, I once had the opportunityof meeting a woman who had already begun the transformation process. I found it to be quite intriguing. However, this individual chose not to look for a relationship until the process was complete. I think it was a wise decision. As for the couple that you mentioned, of course there are going to be changes due to the Hormones. Much as there are for women who experience menopause or pregnancy for that matter. I guess I feel that if 2 women or men are involved in a relationship, why the need for the physical change? I will have to pick up the book mentioned by ritergal.
As for crying. I cry at happy events as much as I do at sad ones. When my eldest niece got married & I saw her starting down the aisle, I began to cry immediately! The same way my tears flowed when our sons graduated from highschool & the day the youngest son married M. During my dance with him at the reception, I held him so close & just cried tears of joy!
I did not see my Dad cry until the day of his fathers passing. It was after that event that he found it easier to cry more openly. J rarely cries, or if he does it must be privately, but I know there are times that he would & should let go.
I will have to talk with him about this & get his point of view.
D
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david, that’s interesting about your friends. What jumped out at me:
That is so true. Emotional access is necessary to creativity. Otherwise, the work comes off as being cold. I do think people can create from a walled off place. But, like I said, the work is not as accessible for me and not as warm.
It’s good to get feedback from your perspective. I wonder if it is true, like you say, that boys are being raised to access their deeper emotions more. I don’t know if I’m around kids enough to know if that’s true.
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diddy, interesting about your father – you didn’t see him cry until after his father died. Then he cried more freely. I wonder how much is linked to intergenerational models.
I wondered about J. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen him cry. (Though I have seen his father cry a few times over my life, in very moving ways.)
It’s complex because it does bring up the question of if people feel like crying and aren’t because of pressure not to – or just don’t have the feelings to begin with because of hormonal differences.
david, I realized in your comment that you didn’t say whether or not you cried. if you come back to this post, it would be interesting to know. You also bring up the point of gay vs. straight men. I haven’t really noticed a difference in that area as far as capacity to show emotion. But I have noticed a difference with some in the willingness to talk about them.
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Thought provoking post. Gender roles are so much more rigid for men, it seems. I am baffled when people who seem to believe in equal rights will react so fiercely when men show signs of emotion and make negative comments that only serve to reinforce gender stereotypes.
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Ivy, it *is* baffling when those who believe in equal rights (at least as far as it relates to themselves) are so quick to judge others. Negativity really polarizes things. People seem to have very strong opinions about gender and sexuality.
But something I notice in my own life is that people change when someone in their own family (or a close friend) is open and honest about their differences. The more people listen and communicate, the more things change for the better. I’m hopeful. 8)
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QM — I believe I have wept twice in the past ten years. This is not because I make an effort not to do it; I simply don’t react that way. I don’t laugh particularly easily, either.
I will also admit to having been impatient with and having felt manipulated by partners who cried easily. However, I react similarly to people who raise their voices or become passionately and visibly angry … obvious displays of emotion are deeply distasteful to me in a way that is difficult to explain … if someone were to watch me cry, I would feel very much as I would if someone were to watch me in the act of throwing up … profoundly humiliated. Maybe I shouldn’t admit to this in quite that way, but oh well — I’d rather be honest than appear enlightened.
(And yes, when I watch other people cry, I do rather feel as though I am watching them throw up, as well.)
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david, wow, twice in the last 10 years. Yeah, when you look at crying related to laughing, that’s something, too. Some people are simply not as emotive as others. I laugh so much more than I used to. And out loud, too, kind of a cackle laugh that people that are close to me get to know about me. 8)
About throwing up as a reaction to crying, and the humiliation you would feel if people watched – that’s such a strong reaction. And a physical, body reaction, too, down in your gut. It tells me that there are probably so many people that watched Hillary tear up a bit (she didn’t really cry) and felt their own humiliation more than anything she was doing wrong.
That’s insightful to me. And something I should already know – that some of our reactions to other people’s emotions (whether the demonstrative aspects or the lack of) are more about each of us and what we have going on inside, than they are about other people.
It kind of calls into question the emotion of love. How can we ever really know? Good discussion. Thanks for coming back and commenting again.
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QM, J & I had a conversation last evening over the crying issue & whether or not it is gender related. After all, we know that babies cry (for different reasons) no matter what their gender is. Same goes for toddlers. It wasn’t until this summer that I saw our 6 year old grandson cry because of an emotional event in his life. His Great Grandfather (who was a member of his other side of family) had died. When Brant visited us after the event he asked if we knew that his Pappy had died. I replied that we knew & were truly saddened to hear about it. He choked up & tears (emotional ones) flowed. It was so touching.
J reminded me that he himself does tear up now & then. A show on TV, for example, Extreme Makeover: Home Edition, will cause him to tear up. Happy or sad endings to movies.
He didn’t know why he didn’t cry openly for years, but did tell me that as he becomes older that aspect is changing. I found that to be quite interesting & now plan on posing the same questions about crying to our sons. D
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diddy, that is so cool that you and J had that conversation. I didn’t know that about Brant and his great grandfather. That is so touching, isn’t it? Oh, Extreme Makeover: Home Edition, tell J that gets me every time. I have to be in the mood to watch it, because I know for sure I’m probably going to tear up at some point. It will be interesting to hear what my nephews say about their own ideas of crying. Thanks for sharing all of this. I appreciate it!
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QM, I posed the question to our oldest son tonight. He hadn’t really put much thought into it, as was J’s first reaction when I asked him about his thoughts. He did say that he thought that he felt as though it was more of a gender issue. I asked him if it it was because it at some point young boys are told to “suck it up”. He said that he did think that could be part of the reason, but for the most part it was mostly a gender issue. I will continue to ask more male & female family members, as I now I am quite intrigued by this. I respect davidrochesters comments & his honesty. His comments added a whole new aspect to this issue.
As for Brant, that moment was so touching! D
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diddy, yeah, it’s funny….I bet most of us don’t think about things like this much until something in the news brings it to our attention. Or, for me, I only think about it every time I want to cry. It’s good to get opinions from younger men like my nephew. Perhaps they would be the most real indicator of if and how things have changed over time in the world of gender. Or a measure of things to come.
It would be good to poll young women, too. But alas, in our family, the odds are stacked against it….at least on my side of the family, there are so many boys! I always tried to get behind my nieces on issues. Bless their hearts, they were always so outnumbered!
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“…some of our reactions to other people’s emotions (whether the demonstrative aspects or the lack of) are more about each of us and what we have going on inside, than they are about other people.”
I actually think that most of our reactions to other people’s emotions — and indeed to other people in general — are self-referential. They almost have to be, don’t you think? There are few of us who are genuinely introspective; and perhaps fewer of us who are entirely aware of the process of understanding the Self through the Other, which is rather a postmodern concept, and one that we haven’t really embraced yet. We used to be a culture that always understood the Other through the Self, which is what led to such a long age of self-determination, racism, and oppression. I think we’re on the way to creating a different kind of community, but we’re using the tool with all the finesse of someone employing a chainsaw to put decorative carving on a chair.
If we admit to understanding ourselves via the mirror of other people, we can do one of two things … recognize the community of humanity, or turn away because we are disgusted by ourselves.
I know which of these I usually do, but then — as I said above, I’d rather be honest than appear enlightened.
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Understanding the self through other – I agree, culturally, we are neophytes. But the self-determination, racism, and oppression will only change if we make great effort in that direction.
I’m not sure if understanding self through other is entirely a post-modern concept. Perhaps some of the self-realization tools like therapy, inner child work, psychological deconstruction, current depression models, are post-modern.
But the idea of understanding ourselves through the mirror of others – I think spiritually enlightened individuals like Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, Saint Teresa of Avila, perhaps all the mystics – though human and flawed – made great effort to step outside of themselves for the greater whole. And I think we can all learn from their example, even if we only do one small thing toward that goal every day.
Maybe I’m naive. But the older I get, the more I want to try to recognize humanity as community. That’s part of why I do this blog with ybonesy every day.
I do admit, some days I look around at what’s going on in the world, this country, this state, this city, my neighborhood, and feel disgusted by who we’ve allowed ourselves to become: self-centered, angry, arrogant, unforgiving, blaming, operating from a scarcity model, disrespectful of resources. And through either complacency or action, I’m a part of all that.
At the same time, I believe change at the individual level is how large scale change happens. I’m willing to see myself as part of the problem and work toward some kind of turning.
It’s a good intellectual and existential discussion. Thanks for replying to this thread again. Stimulating.
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It was late, and I wasn’t quite clear. 🙂 Modernism is usually recognized to be the age of the individual and centralized power, of conquering and oppressiveness, because people tended to see everyone else in terms of difference, or to understand the Other in terms of the Self, usually in a dismissive or negative fashion; if we focus on difference, it is far easier to fail to see other people’s humanity. It’s probably going too far to say that we “understood” the Other in terms of the Self … it would probably be more accurate to say we “defined” the Other in terms of the Self.
The postmodern movement is far less about the individual … which is both a good thing and a bad thing. It’s bad because we’ve become hugely imitative, in life and in art and in every other way; but we are seeing ourselves in other people in ways that strong individualism does not permit. That too can be dangerous, as few of us are comfortable seeing ourselves, or even our shadow selves, in others. But we can’t avoid it, because we are not being culturally indoctrinated with the sense of individual destiny that drove our forebears. We are being forced to realize that we have a community destiny, and that the huge opportunities for self-determination and individuation that used to define the American Dream are very seldom possible anymore.
So what I meant, in bringing this up, was to comment on your comment about people’s reactions to other people’s emotions, and perhaps more specifically (though I was completely incoherent about this) my own distaste for other people’s visible emotions; I know I am one of many who dislike other people’s strong emotions, though it’s not something that is often talked about, generally speaking.
If I were a Victorian, I would be far more easily-able to completely dismiss the emotions of the people around me, and to remain insulated in my towering sense of Self, convinced that my way of reacting to the world was the only way to do it, and to hell with anyone else. That was Modernism. And if I were more fully Postmodern, I would feel more of a sense of communion with other people by seeing myself mirrored or shadow-mirrored in them. But I think that I, and a whole lot of other people, are awkwardly stuck between those two philosophies; what we really want, if we’re fully honest, is to ignore and dismiss people, but for reasons of conscience or culture or whatever else, we can’t. We are forced to look, but we don’t like what we see in other people; we don’t like what it forces us to see about ourselves. And so I think there is a kind of “lost” group of people who can’t stand themselves, and can’t stand anyone else either, and who are very angry and alienated. I think some of those people end up doing things like taking guns to schools, but that’s a different topic.
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Thanks for clarifying, david. That’s a lot to chew on. Feeling awkwardly stuck or lost in the space between Victorian and current values has got to feel confusing. There is kind of a sadness about it, too. Something about the us and them/black and white nature of that way of thinking. I’ll have to think more about it.
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Your comments re: these differing philosophies as they relate to how people today (versus in other times) relate to others’ emotions makes sense. I hadn’t thought about it as an evolving thing or as a thing that could be mapped to different timeframes, but yes, I can see that.
I wonder if the advent of blogging and use of technology to connect with others somehow makes bearable the otherwise unbearable aspect of dealing with others’ emotions. I’m not talking about any one person — you, me, etc. — but rather in general, the notion that social networking satisfies the expectation to be part of community yet allows doing so per agreeable terms. I don’t know if that makes sense.
Not speaking now about technology, I was very immature up to, say, my 40s when it came to dealing with others’ emotions. Frankly, I was often embarrassed by their emotions. I remember when I was about 27, my roommate’s girlfriend came to stay at our house for a few nights to recuperate from an abortion she’d just had. When I saw her right after she came to the house from the clinic, even though I knew what had happened, I acted like she was there for a normal overnight visit. I completely avoided the topic, not wanting to cause her to have to admit what had happened. Consequently, this already painful and awkward moment between us became almost unbearable for her. My roommate afterwards asked me what had happened, why had I done that? But I found that it was my pattern to not engage with others’ emotions.
I’ve traveled the spectrum since then, for a period wanting to be there for friends and even strangers. More recently I’ve tried to just be while others are experiencing their grief. If they need me, I wait for those cues. But I don’t assume that what they need is a hug. It might sound cold, but it’s an attempt on my part to listen to what the other needs versus acting based on what I need.
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Sheesh, I should have just done a post ; – )
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ybonesy- it mikght make a good post. I don’t think you’re alone in feeling for so many years an awkwardness engaging with others emotions. I think a lot of people aren’t sure, quite how to deal with the physical expressions of grief, anger, loss. I even have trouble with my daughter, sometimes. I know what to do when she’s sad, but sometimes if something hurts her emotionally, I feel actually angry. Cus I don’t know how to help, I think it’s fear, really. I feel fearful that she won’t know how to handle things and this turns into frustration in me, a need for her to be okay cus I can’t stand to think of her not okay.
*grins*
these discussions do provoke a lot of typing, huh?
QM- The gender/emotion parts were really interesting but I got caught early on in the part where you were thinking what to let go of… like you were thinking about writing priorities. Of course you have to make that decision but I hope you keep blogging. I would miss you if you stopped blogging.
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I took last night off and am just getting back to reading all the great comments. I’m still thinking about david’s thoughts on people who really don’t like open display of emotions but feel pulled to engage because of the times in which we live, then don’t like what they see in themselves or others. The whole Victorian thing is interesting in terms of the emotional expectations of Victorian men and women.
And then ybonesy’s thoughts on the way she dealt with her friend’s emotions and the pattern to not engage. And social networking as a way to make engaging more comfortable. I’ve been thinking a lot about social networking, too. How different online networking is than face-to-face contact (which allows a certain amount of freedom). But, at the same time, you never really “know” people and how they live their day to day lives.
And then amuirin’s comments on her daughter, wanting to take away her pain. And that brings up the aspects of working with children and emotions. And it also reminds me of the caretaking aspects of people (especially women, including me) and how I’ve personally had to do a lot of work on learning how to feel empathy and compassion for people, while learning that I don’t have to save them (or the world).
The whole discussion has really got me churning (in a good way). I don’t mind the long comments at all. I like that our blog stimulates that kind of commentary. We don’t have to limit ourselves to a 3 sentence soundbite if we don’t want to.
What I’m noticing from the comments is that people in general (perhaps both men and women) really don’t do well with public *or* private displays of emotion. And since many women are prone to hormonal shifts and strong feelings, I wonder what happens when we stuff all those things. And if some men feel angry and/or humiliated at public displays of emotion, what happens to all those feelings.
It seems like we’re *all* feeling something. But there is much fear about what to do with those feelings. And, in the end, don’t we all just want to feel heard?
Yeah, ybonesy, I think you should do another post on all this someday. I can see that it is rich territory. I’m going to keep pondering. 8)
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amuirin, about writing priorities, yes, this is something I’m struggling with a bit at the moment. I’m posing the questions to myself – listening for answers from the center. red Ravine has also become one of my practices around my writing. So I’m not likely to let go on a whim.
ybonesy and I are actually meeting this Friday for a few hours to talk about the direction we want red Ravine to head next: priorities, goals, energy, time. Letting go is always an option. A good friend once told me, “Remember that letting go can be a creative decision, too.” It’s good to stop and evaluate all that once in a while, especially at the beginning of a new year.
I really appreciate what you said. Our readers and commenters make a huge difference to the decisions that ybonesy and I make around red Ravine.
BTW, amuirin, something I’ve noticed in your commenting is that you are very intuitive when it comes to reading between the lines. You often comment on what’s going on in the spaces in-between. I really enjoy that about you. 8)
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I’m really glad that I decided to visit this post again! Last night on the NBC nightly news, they had a small bit at the end of the show. I think they titled it “the truth about girls & boys” (I should pay better attention) They covered the subjects of memory & emotional differences between the sexes & the brains relevance in regards to the differences. It was quite interesting & reminded me of this post. I think they intend to do a small segment at the end of the news program for the rest of the week about this subject. D
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Okay, I have an update on crying in the workplace – real world. I just went to the bathroom in a work environment and crossed paths with a woman who was crying because she just started a new job (within the same company as her old job). It’s a stressful position – dispatch on phones – and she feels like she doesn’t know what she’s doing, and there’s no one around to train her (they are all busy or at meetings).
Another woman, who works in the department the first woman just moved to, had also stopped in the bathroom, saw the first woman crying, and asked her what was wrong. The second woman handled it extremely well: listened with empathy, offered helpful suggestions, listened again, then went back to work. The first woman seemed like she felt a lot better when she left.
All this, I observed in about 5 minutes. And it seemed pretty healthy. True – she didn’t cry out in the open in the workplace. But overall, I thought it went well. How strange to have something arise during this topic discussion. You don’t really see that every day.
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diddy, I bet that whole little NBC segment on girls and boys you are seeing at the end of the news this week is a result of what happened with Hillary and how people reacted, both men and women. It really kicked gender differences to the forefront again. I see this as a good thing. The more informed people are, the better decisions they will make. I’ll keep my eye out for other similar things going on.
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QM, first off I want to again comment on the NBC segment. I am not sure if it was related to the result of what happened with Hillary or not. I was reading while the news was on, but you’re probably right. They had a married couple reminisce about their wedding day. Their memories of that day were so different! It made me think they had not attended the same wedding! I plan on researching this whole emotional issue more.
Now, as far as your experience in the workplace-real world today. I can certainly relate to the story that you told of. J & I would tell you that I could have been the woman offering the crying woman empathy. That is my reaction when I see someone so emotionally upset. J & I often laugh that I am like flypaper for humans! Strangers approach me everywhere we go. It can be the grocery store, a bar, a department store etc… I have many friends, but only a few close ones. Some of my friends I have known for years & not seen in years, but they call me often when they just need someone to talk to. Now, anyone who knows me knows that I am quite the talker! However , I know when to listen & offer support. I just want to say that this is the way I react to the emotional events of others. D
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diddy, seems like a kind and compassionate way to respond. The world needs more good listeners. I bet you are a good friend. I was impressed with what I saw in the workplace today, too. If the other woman had not already been talking to her, I think I would have asked her what was wrong, too. Tried to offer a minute of comfort.
Speaking for myself only, I’ve had to learn not to get too involved in others emotional drama or try to fix it (old pattern). But to listen and sit with what they are telling me. This is still a challenge to me in close relationships.
I’ve also had to work on not giving all my energy away as I have in past relationships. I’ve often put the focus on helping others so I wouldn’t have to look at my own stuff. Or as a way to control. I’ve come a long way but sill have to look out for the energy in, energy out thing!
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QM, I also agree that we shouln’t get too emotionally involved or try to fix others problems. I have one person in particular that I rarely see & only occasionally call because she does tend to to drain me. However, when the chips are down, I will listen & offer support. I would also like to add that I receive phone calls from those with whom I have lost contact. These are the good calls. Knowing that I meant something to that person that would inspire them to make contact with me again.
As for the workplace, I would go out of my way to take a “newbie” in our department for a break away from their desks & talk about anything but work. Yet I would always tell them that they were free to come to me if they were truly having issues coping with the stress. I guess it all depends on individual feelings & how we deal with the complexities of our own lives. D
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I wish I saw the NBC segment-ettes. I think I saw one last night advertised, but I was pooped and didn’t stay up to watch it. (I did watch the Democratic debates and was relieved to see that no one did anything that made me uncomfortable to watch ; – ).
Seriously, though, whenever I’ve been distraught emotionally, I’ve only ever wanted someone who listen and perhaps validate (at least initially, even if they didn’t agree with me). But more often than not, I’m like those animals who go off into a cave or a remote spot of land when they’re hurt. Emotionally, when I’m hurting, I mostly want to be alone. That’s probably a pretty common preference, I would imagine.
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Me, too. Cave dweller all the way. (Maybe that’s why bathrooms are such common places for breakdowns 8) ) When I’m sick, too, all I want to do is be left alone and to sleep. Okay, maybe a vat of chicken soup.
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